Posted by: graemebird | August 21, 2006

What A Difference A Ceasefire Makes…..

Isn’t it strange. That now that the ceasefire has come through that the Israelis have been TRANSFORMED from these outrageous bullies with all this overkill and unfair super-duper firepower… And now that they have conformed to peoples wishy-washy FEELINGS about international law, and to the urgings of their allies…Now that they have have backed off on account that they can see that the terrible pictures of young blokes being wheeled into hospital with their legs blown off… Now that they have decided to “Do the right thing” and look for a chance or an excuse to corale the dogs of war…..

Well they are military incompetents aren’t they. What a difference a ceasefire makes to the dumb left. Now suddenly THAT THE CEASEFIRE IS ON the Israelis got whipped.

And there is a myth out there that took a 360 degrees turn. The idea that Hezbollah chased Israel out of Lebanon the last time round. Total bullshit. They were strong-armed by the Clinton administration is what happened. And they were trying to do the right thing. Immediately after they left they were spat on and the myth developed that Hezbollah drove them out.

Now for four weeks I could taunt the left at what liars and dupes they were.

FOR FOUR WEEKS I COULD RUB IT IN THEIR FACE THAT THEY WERE LIARS AND/OR DUPES FOR BELIEVING THAT RIDICULOUS STORY.

I should be able to do it now. But it will be no turning of the vice to do so. Because that myths bounced back with a bunch of others.

What a difference a ceasefire makes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Normally speaking a guerilla force (an unfamiliar role foisted on Hezbollah, though one must not deny that probably they were the best light infantry in the Arab world as well as being the A-Team of terror) ought to be able to kill ten soldiers in the opposition while the guerilla force maybe loses one.

Well it looks like early on in the war it was TEN TO ONE THE OTHER WAY. And while it may have gotten down to 1 to 1 or 2 to 1 at the end the wash-up looks like the Israelis nailed the highly skilledm meticulously trained and lavishly resourced Hezbollah….

It looks like the Israelis whipped the Hez (A GUERILLA FORCE FOR FUCKSAKES)…. It looks like the Israelis whipped the Hezbollah, hiding behind their relatives, AT ABOUT 5 TO 1 in terms of body count..

It looks like 500 Hezbollah were killed and heaps and heaps injured and about 100 plus Israelis dead…..

EVERY ISRAELI IS A SOLDIER. The old men. The middle-aged sheilas. Those hot young babes who look oh so interesting holding a rifle. Every one of them a fighter.

But this mafia/terrorist/guerilla force…. we are only talking several thousand. Just forget how many were killed for the moment. How many Hezbollah lost a leg? Or an eye?
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………

But never mind. BULLSHIT MOMENTUM TRUMPS REASON EVERY TIME.

Here is what I wrote on Prodeo.

PanelbeaterBird on 21 August 2006 at 4:21 pm
Well our side with its tradition of free speech has been left behind on what we call BULLSHIT MOMENTUM.

I mean on the one hand you guys are saying the Israeli response was DISPROPORTIONATE………..

But then on the other hand you are saying THE ISRAELIS GOT TERRIBLY STOMPED….

Now no-one was claiming that the Israelis got stomped until the ceasefire was in place.

But the minute the ceasefire is over everyones saying that the Israelis got stomped.

Before the ceasefire: Israelis inhumane jew-bullies using their massively unfair firepower.

After the ceasefire: Oh shucks well you know. Only conservatives don’t realise that the Israelis got horribly beaten…..

The Israelis are such bullies/The Israelis got their guts handed to them on a plate….

Now perhaps with you leftists helping them the jihadists may effectively be able to rewrite history and get a psycological win over a military thrashing.

But it only makes the point that while we can still whip all these people with the SWORD we are hopelessly beaten when it comes to the SERMON.

And the other point is that BULLSHIT MOMENTUM trumps REASON every time.

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I would like to add to this. A war ends when one side knows it has lost. The Israelis won that encounter no question from a military standpoint. But the Hez are (publicly at least) triumphant. Those Hezbollah that haven’t been injured have been promoted up in the world by the death of their colleagues and now they are probably feeling like Mafia bigshots if they weren’t bigshots in the organisation before. In an outfit like that a lot of deaths means promotion and status to those that are left.

But I want you leftists to think about what you are acheiving when you go to bat for terrorist propaganda.

A war isn’t finished until both sides agree that one side is lost. We may have beaten the Germans in World War I. I think we probably did. I think though just a few months before they were chewing our ground forces up like nobodies business. And those green American troops were getting eaten alive. But I think it is the case that their logistics probably came to a grinding halt.

But one way or another they didn’t feel beaten.
(I got to looking at things this way reading Victor Davis Hanson and Donald Kagan…. both Classics Proffessors).

So the left going to bat for the terrorists every time is prolonging the war. Its irresponsible.

And notice something else.

In Iraq things are worse then they’ve ever been. All the time prior the left was saying that things were worse then they really were. All the time prior the left were ignoring anything good that was happening there.

Now things are really frightful the left has lost interest. Its job of political warfare is not necessary any longer. Its giving moral support and encouragement to the enemy is now superfluous.

So the left has turned off Iraq. And also it could not be clearer now that the dictatorships have been pushing the murder of Iraqis and Americans in Iraq all this time. And its like Iran doesn’t even seem to want to hide what they are doing anymore.

So the left are quiet on Iraq for the very first time.

NEWLY UPDATED WITH MUCH SPLEEN.

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Responses

  1. Right. What has upset many people is that Israel killed 1000 Lebanese civilians, indeed deliberately targeted them from the air. Now the war was pretty well full on and Hezbollah would have killed as many Israelies as they could have had they the weaponery. Israel’s aim was to reignite the Lebanese Civil War but the Lebanese did not bite, and now they respect Hezbollah for putting up a pretty good show of resistance, and chucking in with help to displaced citizens.

    Your method of accounting is rather specious. That part of the world is pretty nasty, and we don’t really want to import it into Australia. But the fight there is not really over, and the thought that someone like for example the USA would like to expand all out war to include for example Syria and Iran is rather alarming.

    Most of the Terrorist Threat talk is wildly exaggerated, and contaminated by political considerations. If you don’t believe this you have not been following the story in responsible outlets. Anyway if you want to get so overheated that you find yourself conscripted or coerced into a real shooting war that’s your problem, and you’re welcome to it.

  2. “hat has upset many people is that Israel killed 1000 Lebanese civilians, indeed deliberately targeted them from the air.”

    No they didn’t.

    Thats enemy propaganda.

    Shame on you. They did no such thing. If they could have knocked out those terrorists and those missiles without killing a single civilian they would have done so.

    A retraction is in order.

    Syria and Iran are to blame for those Lebanese deaths.

  3. I think you are lying Noonan.

    Make an accounting for yourself!

  4. A lot of people got caught up in this stuff via the disproportionate argument. They took disproportionate to mean something like, innacurate. The Israelis were imprecise. careless. Which they probably were a bit, heat of battle and all that.

    The real argument is that the kind of actions Israeli undertook – actions which by their nature neccesitated civilian deaths, destruction of infrastructure and inevitable screw ups (ambulances/UN compunds) – were of themselves disproportionate. Not having done the hiostorical legwork, i don’t have a firm view on this, but I am gravely doubtful that what the Israelis did was justified. And as you say, Bird, it was all or nothing. And the All was never gonna be enough – Bush’s closed eyse and distracted whistling notwithstanding. Other than that I think t.k’s analysis is fairly spot on.

    You’re right though. Hezbollah, Syria and Iran’s bloody hands are a neccesary part of the tale. But so is the Israeli attack on the Gaza Beach a week before the first kidnapping.

    You may not have noted it, but from way at the beginning people (at Lp for example) were saying that the Israeli actions were probably morally wrong (disproportionate) but definitely tactically foolish. They were that the Israelis were gonna get stomped. And there was no glee about it.

  5. “The Israelis were imprecise. careless. Which they probably were a bit, heat of battle and all that.”

    No they weren’t. What are you talking about.

  6. One other thing. I think the Israelis lost, but i dont see any need to crow about it. there is no need to encourage hezbollah unneccesarily. And i think the US and ISrael will learn their lesson without it being rubbed in their face.

    Sadly, i think it is not western but arab opinion of the war, which is going to bolster Hezbollah.

  7. Look. You don’t THINK at all. You want to go back and de-conflate and untangle all this shit you got going here.

  8. Maybe my writing style doesn’t suit your reading style Bird.

    I agree with you. The bit you quoted was me trying to explain what a lot of other people thought. And how they got this confused with the disproportionality argument.

    My argument is in the second paragraph. If you’ve got a problem with something I stated then say so. I’m afraid instead of untangling it for you, im going to bed.

  9. Yeah Ok, that last comment proves I need to go to bed. All i meant was that its easy to be cold blooded and precise in tactical HQ back in Tel Aviv, But when you’re in the plane or when you’re on the frontline. rushes of blood and sudden events can get the better of you.

    I dont blame the Israelis for this, I accept it as a natural consequence of any military conflict. I’m just pointing out that this is why the misreading of the ‘disproportionate response’ argument can appear to be grounded in reality.

  10. MichaelG’s a thoughtful fellow, Bird. No need to get so nasty at him …

  11. Or I’ll go next door and Sic Ali G onto you.

  12. No the second paragraph is all confused drivel also. It comes with not strongly sorting out whether the first paragraph is right or wrong.

  13. OK. Clearly you want me to toe the line, or shut up. I’ll come back when/if I have the energy.

  14. “OK. Clearly you want me to toe the line, or shut up. I’ll come back when/if I have the energy.”

    No thats a most grievous lie as well.

    What I WANT you to do is to THINK boy.

    And I don’t think thats too much to ask

    “OK. Clearly you want me to toe the line, or shut up. I’ll come back when/if I have the energy.”

    For the love of bending over Muslim girls two-a-time thats such a FUCKINGATROCIOUS lie.

  15. OK, to be fair, your version of toeing the line actually allows an exceptionally amount of creativity. It’s just that initially, it requires one to accept a whole lot of very contentious first principles. The only reason I come here is that I hope you – and your estimable intellect – will wander out of the cave (or into the cave, if that description offends you less) and interact with people who disagree with your underlying beliefs. Actually, that’s not true. This place is entertaining, for sure.

    Of all the accusations that could be levelled at me (and many would stick, believe me) the most ridiculous one is that I don’t think; that i stand in line and accept recieved wisdom. I often find myself in strange situations saying ridiculous things precisely because i do try and think independently. There’s not too many people round here at the moment. If what you are really saying is ‘you think, but your thoughts are stupid,’ then why dont you take the time to show me the error/s of my way.

  16. Graeme
    MichaelG here is one of the few lefties around who actually sees through the BULLSHIT MOMENTUM of your detractors and takes you seriously. You should consider returning the courtest. You don’t want to spend the rest of your life preaching to the converted do you?

  17. Youdon’t THINK Motherfucker.

    Or at least you don’t think clearly.

    And when you find what to your understanding is CONTENTIOUS assumptions then you oughto find out whether they are true or false.

    Because its no a good time to LIE and suggest that there are Jews out there INTENTIONALLY targeting civilians.

    Now thats a LIE.

    Its a dirty filthy fucking lie.

    You don’t have but a single excuse to believe it.

    This lie makes no sense.

    And if you were honest you would realise all of the above.

  18. When they decided that sustained aeriel bombardment was a neccesary means to their ends (and there’s the contentious assumption – although i’m sure your principles go further back) the Israeli’s ensured a lot of civilians (mostly lebanese, some Israeli) would die.

    OK, here we go:

    1) I didn’t say they intentionally targeted civilians.
    2) I said their response was disproportionate.
    3) I then said that some people believe that the second was a result of the first.
    4) I. Don’t. Believe. This. But I can understand why they got confused.

    And you can’t use the excuse of my writing being convulted. Not unless you want the kettle to retaliate against the pot.

    Cheers Jason, but, at the moment, there’s nothing that riles me more than being called a lefty. Read into that what you want.

  19. Argh. that is convoluted.

    3) some people believe that the Israeli’s did target civilians and that’s why their response was disproprtionate.

    I believe that the Israelis actions neccesitated the deaths of civilians. I believe those actions were unnecesary. I believe their response to the initial Hezbollah atrocities was disproportionate and tactically dubious. Other believe this, and said so weeks ago. This undermines the whole thrust of your post.

  20. wow Michael
    that was vicious.

    Last time I try to intervene in a domestic. I’ll go and put a block of ice on that eye now …

  21. I think you’ve just done it again Jason 🙂

    Oh, i just saw the new spleen.And id like to point out, I made a comment on Iraq, just this morning.

  22. Don’t tell me what you BELEIVE jerkoff.

    Make some sort of argument. All you are telling me is that you fell for enemy propaganda.

    You’ve got everything backwards.

    No war has ever been won nor peace gained by proportionate responses.

    This is the FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE I’ve heard this crap and its proof that you don’t think for yourself.

  23. Look, Israel went to great lengths to warn the populace before they attacked and in doing so gave advance warning to the enemy of their intentions – this is not the tactic of a military that purposely targets civilains.

    When they did attack they did so using guided weaponry aiming at specific targets – this is not the tactic of a force whose intention it is to inflict maximum damage on civilians.

    I cant believe the west has fallen for the Hezbollah propaganda, a force who are now apparently preparing to rearm with more sophisticated SAMS http://www.securitywatchtower.com/archives/003930manpads_man_portable_air_defense_system_a_technology_enhanced_terrorism.html

    All this under the noses of the UN and the EU!

    This is all a bit like Vietrnam, all the peaceniks were focussed on was weakening the US and after the US signed a peace deal with the NKVD and withdrew made no comment what so ever on the breaking of same peace plan and subsequent invasion of S Vietnam by NKVD. NKVD targetted civilians by the truckload but not so much as a squeak from the peaceniks.

    Is this to happen again? Iran, now emboldened by apparent Hezbollah win, will strike more firmly against a Israel whilst the EU/UN turn their backs and look the other way, apparently this being their definition of a proportionate response.

  24. here’s some evidence of collateral damage, Bird. are you going to say this was enemy propaganda?
    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2006/08/22/1156012541229.html

  25. Well, welcome to the 21st Century GMB. War is different. Imperialism is also different.

    Like I said, we’re not gonna get anywhere while you think Israel is under siege and is alone in holding up the flickering candle of freedom, economic development and all that is good in this world. And while I don’t.

    Rog, If you’re responding to me, then you’ve also misread my argument.

    So Iran is emboldened and the situation may well escalate. Why is it so hard for you blokes to develop a nuanced view of this situation? Iran is emboldened by Israel ‘losing’ as much as Hezbollah ‘winning.’ You don’t think the Bush had his eye on this outcome? You don’t think Iran had its eye on this outcome. You don’tthink they’re both crazy? And that scary ‘we’ll take you to the brink of nuclear war’ crazy, not harmless ‘old guy in the street’ crazy

  26. I was not targetting you Michael I was just letting off.

    No, I dont think Bush is crazy.

    What is this imperialism that you guys keep talking about? Apart from Maccas and Oprah I see no evidence of being subjugated to the Evil Empire of the US, unlike our previous links to the British Empire which were real.

    I am presently doing a job for a couple, she is from Bangladesh, you want endemic corruption, imperialism, islamic fundamentalism, theft by the state etc etc go to Bangladesh.

  27. What was the point of the link Jason?

    This is how it works.

    The terrorist side attempts to get AS MANY OF THERE OWN CIVILIANS KILLED as an integral part of their strategy.

    And the terrorist regime is in any case really just Iran forward basing, perhaps we might say on a bungy leash.

    So its Iran trying to get their guys to try and get as many Lebanese killed as they possibly can.

    And they succeeded and got a lot of Lebanese killed.

    Its such a see-through tactic. Yet folks always fall for it. And they wouldn’t DO it if folks, mainly left-wing, didn’t fall for it.

    Now this doesn’t tell us anything about Israeli strategy or the appropriateness of the way they fought. Its just a fucking fact that this is how terrorists work. If you don’t believe me you can go to youtube and find these guys using ambulances as part of their fighting techniques.

    Its disgusting. These guys are the filthiest murderers imagineable. And getting your own people killed in this way is even a worse crime then murdering folks from the other side. I devoted an entire thread to this crime.

    Now Michael G…………

    Imperialism hey?

    What the fuck are you talking about?

  28. “Its such a see-through tactic. Yet folks always fall for it. And they wouldn’t DO it if folks, mainly left-wing, didn’t fall for it.”

    Yeah, I think that’s right, Birdy. As witnessed by CNN’s (surprising) confession, Hizbollah knows exactly what buttons to push to get the responses they want from the west and its media. If their claims were treated with the scepticism they deserve, as a matter of journalistic routine, they wouldn’t keep doing it.

    How many times have we seen the figure of 1,200 or so dead Lebanese civilians in the MSM? And the arguement that where the IDF killed civilians, the Hizb killed mainly soldiers? Yet the IDF estimates it has killed 530 identified Hizbollah terrorists, and some less reliable analyses have put the figure at 1,500. How many times have we seen those figures quoted in the MSM?

    I know body counts are more than a bit obscene, so maybe I shouldn’t harp on them — but the figures for alleged civilian deths are being used against Israel every minute of the day.

  29. Well you see body-counts are NOT obscene when it comes to Hezbollah. They are instead a matter of gushing joyousnous coming straight from the heart.

    Because if there is 530 of these guys dead then there must be 2,000 with maybe their LEGS blown off or something.

    And that represents a huge skill-set and a lost investment for Iran that runs into the hundreds of millions.

    Man if we can’t whip these regimes and then hunt down and hang every last one of the Hez then we ought to have our asses whipped and be sent back to our various countries of ultimate origin for the shame of it all.

    You let one of these guys live with all four limbs intact in Beirut you might be facing them in Prague or Bangkok.

  30. Imperialism? If you really want to know you can start with Andre Gunder Frank’s Dependency theory.

  31. Bangladesh is one of the 2 or 3 poorest countries in the world if I remember right. So many damn people. So much damn flooding. I don’t think we should be racing to the bottom, Rog.

  32. Surely Hezbollah needs to be conscious of its domestic audience as much as it international one. Are you suggesting they could effectively target Lebanese civilians willy nilly, and still have gotten such a big public swing-around. Many of those people are on the ground, not watching from their living rooms.

  33. They did everything they could to get their own people killed by Israel. Broke every longstanding law of war known. And may very well have targeted their own civilians directly if they thought they could plausibly blame Israel.

    This stuff is standard terrorist technique. You don’t have a grasp of the situation at all. You are acting like you just started watching the news last year.

  34. “Imperialism? If you really want to know you can start with Andre Gunder Frank’s Dependency theory.”

    No. YOU can start with explaining yourself and thinking for yourself and not relying on punditry buggering your ear.


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