Posted by: graemebird | February 20, 2009

Lets Have That Mars Debate Or Forever Hold Your Peace.

Cambria cannot lay a glove on me in reasoned debate. He’s picked up a few of my rhetorical habits which is quite pleasing actually. But if he goes to hassle some fascist under a pseudonym (a very worthy activity) it creates the impression that its me doing it. Never mind. Thats not my main complaint. In fact I’m not complaining about it at all if its he who is doing it or not. Conservatives ought to go under cover more often. I myself have never or almost never showed up anywhere under a pseudonym if I wasn’t moderated. But I recommend for conservatives to start taking up multitude identities and start fighting on the offensive. Thats what the opposition does. They defend their citadel from any divergent view, and they then proceed to fight on the offensive. And if we want to win against fascism, well thats what I advocate people do.

So this is not what my complaint is about. My complaint is that Cambria is hassling me about things I do not feel like I have a great deal of choice about. I think its unfair. I think I am well aggrieved to the point that there is a moral case for voluntary monetary compensation.

All I do is follow the evidence. I’m as much an epistemologist as anything else. And my idea is to just suss out the preferred methodology and apply it to the idea at hand.

I must be a bit slow on the uptake for some things because it was only just a few months ago that I ran across a bunch of pictures of items on Mars that looked artificial. Now there is absolutely no doubt that they LOOK artificial. Anyone who says they don’t at least LOOK artificial is a known zombie and liar.

samp-tunnels

glass-tubes

tubes_a01

We know this sort of structure on earth. In industry and in consumer durables this setup is ALWAYS for the same application. It is for when the atmosphere outside the Tube has to be different then the atmosphere inside the Tube insofar as difference relates to air pressure. That is for blowers, Vacumn systems, the hose on your vaccunm clearner, the connecting collapsable tube on the back of your portable air conditioner, the tube on a sleep apnea blower and this sort of thing.

This is unmistakeable as an industrial application. Plus its the right size as well. These tubes are apparently 20-30 metres across. These aren’t the only strange artificial looking pictures from Mars. But the context is almost always the same for pictures that look artificial. The context is that they have the look of the remnants of an industrial outpost. Much as we might expect to have on the moon in 1000 years time if civilisation continues without collapse.

Furthermore the whole setup looks far more realistic and prosaic then any science fiction fantasy. Since it looks like the sort of crude make-do structures you would have to work with if everything had to be cost-effective.

The Chinese, Americans and Russians already have plans to refine Helium 3 from the moon. These hubristic ventures will all fail or turn out to be money-pits if they are government run. But if someone were to try this at a profit, we would need just the sorts of things we see from some of these pictures on Mars. We’d need very large structures and mostly made from crude local materials. And certainly we’d need artificial atmosphere tubes to allow some sort of working arrangement away from the main base.

Of course this isn’t the only explanation for what these things are. Just the only good one so far. And there is really nothing that we know about science that makes this a preposterous notion. Always you expect some even better explanation to come out of left field. But so far it hasn’t. So I just follow the evidence and thats all that I do. Nearly all armchair conjectures turn out to be wrong in the final analysis. But you go with whatever is the most plausible explanation at the time. I find it very unlikely that this rough explanation will be overturned in this case however. Since there is nothing that we know that would make it implausible in the first place.

People have just got to grow up and stop being idiotic about matters like this because so far the evidence points to some sort of industrial outpost perhaps millions of years ago or perhaps many thousands of years ago, depending on how much wear and tear you would expect from Martian weather processes.

Now what powers of second sight has this ignorant boot-nigger Goth low-life got that supercedes what the evidence suggests to us? What has this mummified Joe 90 got to gainsay the above?

I bring this matter up because of the following annoying fact: Since Cambria has never bested me in any debate ever he’s taken to the annoying habit of talking about me by conflating me with any number of loony-toon leftists. The exact sort of people I hate. Like Rumplestiltskin over at Deltoid. People like that. People who think exactly opposite to me. So he conflates me with these guys who he tends to defer to in matters of science……. And then he brings up the Mars business.

Well you know. That has some ways to go as a form of argumentation. But apparently its the best that a person so primitive in his thinking is capable of.

So I sez if you are going to bring up Mars then lets hear about your thoughts on Mars. What is it that makes you think these structures are natural when they don’t look the least bit natural? And why would anyone look askance at the idea of an ancient industrial outpost on Mars in the first place? Mars has many advantages over Earth as a place to set up, if at first you assume that their main energy technology was Helium 3 fusion.

Technological progress is imbedded in capital goods updates. We cannot develop technology outside of the context of a money-based division-of-labour economy. So if refugees from a developed civilisation find themselves in the middle of nowhere, with only a spaceship as their capital goods, this brings many problems with it. Because capital goods get used up in the course of industrial production. So we have to extrapolate what sort of choices one would have to make, when you were caught in the Middle of woop woop with a great energy source, but with a permanent shortage in labour and capital goods.

WHAT IS THE BIG CONTROVERSY ALL ABOUT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Well I don’t see that the way they would solve these dire problems would be too much different then what would explain the full spectrum of the very strange artificial structures we see on Mars. So I just cannot see what the big controversy is all about. It would be just like running into evidence of our Antarctic bases 1000 years after they had been abandoned. Whats to be skeptical about when the evidence is there without counter-evidence or reasoned counter-argument?

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Responses

  1. How is this for a clear reversal of cause and effect from the ignorant Cambria:

    “Boris:

    We need the freaking money. That’s what happens when you run a current account deficit of 5 to7% of GDP for year. When global liquidity tightens up you can’t choose who gives you money, you just take it.”

    Don’t listen to him Boris. He’s full of shit. We don’t need the money. Cambria doesn’t have a clue what he is talking about. If Rio goes bankrupt the debt forgiveness is the better deal from a nationalist point of view.

  2. Birdy,

    You deserve to be lampooned on this topic if you don’t give indications on where you got those pictures, which technology produced them, what the scale of what we are looking at is etc…

    As long as you don’t give these details, the rest is just pure conjecture, which is most often than not the case with you regardless of the subject.

  3. I got the pictures from google images. The tubes tend to be about 20-30 metres across. You won’t know what technology produced them since they are presumably ancient. Of COURSE its conjecture dummy. What else could it be. This is the first time I remember any dummy talking as though conjecture was a dirty word.

    Whats your theory about them? I can assure you that no faux-skeptic has been able to explain them away in anything like a sensible fashion. Banded tubes of that size are clearly not something natural to geology. The pattern looks industrial or failing that biological which is even more ridiculous.

  4. I’ll tell you what. Later on I’ll imbed a commentary on what was found on Mars to give you some more background.

    But you tell me what it is you think you know that would make a millions of years old industrial remnants an implausible idea? People just take this knee-jerk reaction but there is nothing about science which would make it seem incredible or implausible in the first place.

    I don’t expect interstellar visitors to come our way all that often. Since the distances are far too great. But I don’t see why its unlikely that some crowd may have dropped by some millions of years ago. Why not? I’m neutral about the idea. But you go with the evidence. And the evidence shouts artificiality and doesn’t so much as whisper anything else.

  5. By source I meant, which Mars mission took them, when where they taken since there were several surveyor missions. (The fact you picked them up on Google is for me a bad start.)

    The technology question was about how the pictures where taken. Classical daylight optics with CCD type imager or infra-red or radar (3D scanner) rendered as grayscale image etc…

    You say those “tubes” are 20-30 meters across. Where did you get that info from?

    A conjecture as such isn’t a dirty word, it only becomes one when you make up a whole theory without first establishing exactly what that data is.

  6. They don’t come from any ground truth mission.

    And no you are talking nonsense. It not going to make any difference me hunting down and listing all sorts of technical data. I couldn’t think of anything more pointless than that. These pictures go back many many years. They originally come off the database of NASA pictures.

    When these pictures first came back there were all sorts of strange things found. Arthur C Clarke (a life-long skeptic) discovered shapes down the South that looked like giant trees. They still look like that. Not that they are probably giant trees but thats what they look like from space. Somehow all this got played down. The “trees” seemed to wax and wane with the seasons. NASA ought to be closed down because they refuse to investigate anything interesting.

    I only found out about this stuff a few months ago. I was astonished that no-one had mentioned this to me before. So I just apply the same methodology. Just go with the evidence no matter what.

  7. Here is commentary on the pictures by someone sensible. Now there are also a lot of people saying a lot of crazy stuff about these photographs. The important thing to understand is that the crazytalk cannot possibly affect the plausibility or otherwise of the underlying idea of artificiality.

    Later pictures are even more bizzare when trying to keep the faith of non-artificiality. We have what looks like an open cut mine.

  8. “And no you are talking nonsense. It not going to make any difference me hunting down and listing all sorts of technical data.”

    If you don’t understand that you first and foremost have to have this technical data in order to correctly interpret these images, there is no point in having a debate.

    It would be like debating the existence of ghosts based on Halloween pictures.

    Have fun in your real faux-skeptic parallel universe.

  9. You don’t need to know the technical data.

    Its not infrared. Its just pictures from the Mars Surveyor. These are just straight black and white photos. Not infrared. If I see a picture of something on Mars the last thing I”m going to ask is what camera they are using. Its NASA. They weren’t up there doing trick photography as far as I know. This is an entirely spurious line of reasoning on your part.

    How many outfits do you think went to take pictures on Mars? Now we have the Europeans but then there was only NASA. So NASA with straight black and white satellite photography. If they are running some elaborate rope-a-dope its nothing I can do about it. I’ve just got to go with the evidence until such time as NASA fesses up or whatever.

  10. I cannot believe it. You are acting as if its earth pictures and there is maybe 1000 different trick photographers that could have intervened.

    Its just NASA satellite phorography. I don’t think they put together some malign scam in advance of going to Mars. Its just their log of photos.

  11. THE POSTER HAS IDIOTICALLY ASSERTED THAT THE TUBES ARE SAND DUNES. BUT SAND DUNES ARE EASY TO SPOT AND NO SAND DUNE HAS EVER LOOKED LIKE A TUBE.

    ITS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT ON THIS FORUM IF YOU TELL LIES YOU GET WRITTEN OVER OR WIPED. OBVIOUSLY THEY ARE NOT SAND DUNES. THE PERSON SAYING SO IS MENTALLY AFFLICTED, HAS BEEN TAKEN IN BY THE LAMEST SCAM OR IS SIMPLY LYING.

  12. Come on dopey. What are you going to do for your next trick. The standard thing from the stupid is to post a picture of a sand dune and to say “this one looks like a sand dune.”

  13. I’M NOT SEEING AN ARGUMENT HERE? ALSO THE IDEA THAT THE EARTH IS EXPANDING IS A GOOD ONE AND JUSTIFIED BY CONVERGENT EVIDENCE. THERE IS NOT MUCH IN THE WAY OF ARGUMENTS AGAINST IT. ALTHOUGH I HAVEN’T SEEN ANY CONVINCING EVIDENCE THAT EARTH IS EXPANDING AT ANYTHING LIKE THE RATE THAT SOME ADVOCATES WOULD HAVE IT.

    FIND YOURSELF AN ACTUAL ARGUMENT YOU DUMB SHIT.

  14. Well here is these tubes. And this dummy reckons they aren’t evidence and they were caused by the weather. In DH’s moronic view the weather on Mars hollowed out these long tranparent tubes and created the wrap-around bands.

    Go away DH. You are too much of a blockhead to comment here.


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